Kathryn
Hey all! Trying to think of how to start this Black Mirror conversation.
It occurred to me that I used to think Black Mirror stories were about how technology damages humanity.
After watching the first two seasons I now think that they’re about how technology allows humanity to damage ITSELF, faster.
Hannah
Yeah, I wouldn’t label it “anti-technology” or anything. I think it’s just exploring creeptastic human stuff with a sci-fi leaning.
Kathryn
But specifically how a human being’s worst impulses can be magnified by an invention that’s supposed to make our lives “better”.
Devastated by the loss of your loved one? Here’s something that will let you pretend you’re still talking to them. So you can NEVER move on.
Hannah
Right, although I think any compelling horror story pivots on something similar to that.
Kathryn
Hmm, I think you’re right, but I’m trying to think of a comparison to another horror story.
Hannah
I guess I wasn’t looking for an overall thesis to the program; I just thought of it as a near-futuristic horror show.
Kathryn
Definitely a very Twilight Zone type show, but as you said with a more consistently sci-fi tone.
Hannah
…just as I was describing it to Jenn that way :)
Elizabeth
I wonder if one of the themes could also be making you look at your own preconceptions, asking yourself the questions you hope you never have to ask?
If someone you loved died, damn the consequences, would you bring them back to life as a robot?
How much money would it take for you to throw away your principles?
Would you ever consider fucking a pig?
And so on.
Kathryn
As much as we love our phones, could we REALLY turn down something that lets us play our memories back on demand?
Hannah
Yeah, although again, I think that’s fiction in general, and especially sci-fi and horror–speculation.
Kathryn
Actually I wanted to ask you both about that memory-episode from season one.
Back when IMDB had a comment section, there was a HUGE argument about that episode.
Hannah
(The Entire History of You)
Kathryn
A lot of people were pissed that it seemed to be saying that the husband would have been happier if he’d never learned that his wife was unfaithful and his daughter was actually conceived by her lover.
Elizabeth
I actually had a slight problem with that too.
Kathryn
And my thought was, well, yes, he would have been.
HOWEVER.
It’s more nuanced than that.
Elizabeth
(My only issue was that he was definitely an obsessed, kind of horrible person, but he was RIGHT and she WAS cheating on him.)
Hannah
Yeah, and I really didn’t think of it as having a particular “message” so much as “Wowsa, there’s a compelling story.”
Kathryn
That too.
I felt that he cut out the implant at the end because he realized he was NEVER going to be happy while he had it.
Hannah
Yeah, it’s basically the futuristic version of looking at your partner’s phone.
Kathryn
From the MOMENT his wife makes an appearance, he’s constantly looking for proof that she’s cheating.
Hannah
Elizabeth
If you go snooping you’ll always find something. Always.
Kathryn
And then as soon as he proves it and she’s gone he spends all his time looking at moments where he was happy.
Elizabeth
Right.
I figure on some level he knew even if he got over her and met someone new he’d do the whole thing again, because he’s addicted and that’s his drug.
Kathryn
And wasn’t it implied that she cheated on him after they had a huge fight after, surprise surprise, he accused her of cheating on him?
Elizabeth
That’s what I wondered too, were they blaming the end of the relationship on the chip?
Kathryn
I’m not really sure cutting out the implant would solve his problem.
Hannah
Yeah, it’s less about the technology and more just showing human flaws.
Elizabeth
But we love a quick fix so chop it out of your head.
Kathryn
Technology just let him feed on his natural mistrust.
Hannah
I mean, I don’t mind telling myself to put my phone down or to stay off Facebook or to block someone (spoilers) if it keeps them out of my brain. I think it’s a fair solution (though he’s still a dick.)
Elizabeth
Right. Though I was pretty pissed at her too. I get that people are flawed and make bad decisions but she lied and lied and LIED the whole episode.
Hannah
Can I insert some useless trivia? Apparently that guy played Doctor Doom in the 2015 Fantastic Four, so between him and Jodie Whitaker, it was
DOCTOR DOOM AND DOCTOR WHO.
Elizabeth
EEEEEEEEE
Kathryn
AHAHAHAAHA!
Elizabeth
A ton of people keep popping up from things I love.
The main actor from Get Out was in the American Idol one.
Hannah
Elizabeth, to your point about being mad at her, though, I kind of thought that was a “we were on a break” situation, and that lying about it was a last-ditch effort to save the relationship.
Elizabeth
True, and if he’s not the father of their child is there ever a GOOD way to tell him?
Hannah
NERP, and he obviously wasn’t capable of handling any part of that.
Kathryn
I’m not sure they spent a lot of time showing why she WOULD want to be in a relationship with him in the first place.
He was uniformly horrible.
Elizabeth
Also I started to say “knowing how jealous he can be she should’ve never been laughing at the baby-daddy’s jokes” but yuck, pandering to your partner’s jealous rages makes me want to go take a shower.
Hannah
I will just say that the actor, Toby Kebbell, manages to be mildly boyishly charismatic in the beginning…is the only way you get hooked into rooting for that relationship.
Elizabeth
The images of them when they were happy were awfully sweet.
Hannah
Did anyone catch her character’s name? Wikipedia told me it was Ffion, which is Welsh, apparently.
Kathryn
I hadn’t caught that one, interesting.
Hannah
Re: Daniel Kaluuya and the American Idol ep, do you know who else was in that? Apparently Rupert Everett was the asshole Australian judge.
Kathryn
WHOA.
Casting to type?
Elizabeth
Wow.
Hannah
I was definitely shocked to see it was Everett…I was hoping to confirm whether that was Australian or S. African, but since he’s actually British, it didn’t help.
Elizabeth
Did you catch the fact that the song she sings in the American Idol one is the same one she sings at the karaoke place in White Christmas?
Kathryn
Damn, no I missed that. This is what happens when you go more than a year between seasons.
Hannah
NO but that totally…makes sense? In that it was so familiar, I guess?
Elizabeth
They keep seeding stuff like that all over, the cutesy digital pregnancy test shows up a couple times.
Hannah
That’s fun, to have it an anthology but with Easter eggs.
Kathryn
The 2nd episode of season one actually made me feel worse than the 3rd episode.
Elizabeth
Which was that, American Idol?
Kathryn
Yep, “Fifteen Million Merits”
Elizabeth
Yeah, it was so bleak.
Kathryn
I think it’s because the main character does something unbelievably good-hearted, and it ends up being the worst thing that could have happened to the woman he liked.
Hannah
Yeah, although the effects in that are so well done. I love love love their screen-surround bedrooms.
Kathryn
Me too, and that chilling bit when the screens started piping a sonic alarm if someone tried to CLOSE THEIR EYES TO THE ADS.
Elizabeth
Yes!
Hannah
Gah, yes!
Elizabeth
Paying money to shut ads off. We’re already doing that NOW.
Hannah
And somehow the dude on the next bike over being such an obnoxious dick was just…almost too well done. Gave me gym flashbacks.
Elizabeth
The archetypes were spot on, including the nice-but-weak weasley dude who would probably follow something trendy right off a cliff.
Kathryn
All the different ways to keep numb in a really horrible situation.
Elizabeth
Which made the image of him drinking a plain old glass of orange juice so effective.
Kathryn
And that was a nice touch in the end when you realize that he’s got the life that tons of people would envy, and really all he’s gotten is a larger and slightly nicer cage.
Elizabeth
He probably doesn’t have to do the finger-trigger-toothpaste anymore.
Hannah
And of course it’s not the first time, I don’t think, there’s been a story about someone trying to game the horrible game, only for the game (or authority or whatever) to be like, “I like your style. Here’s a reward!”
Elizabeth
And the idea that even though they were fighting the game, what they really kinda wanted was just to win the game.
Kathryn
I feel like he really did want to fight the game, and maybe convinced himself that his show was really doing that.
Hannah
You want to fight the system, but you want to fight it less when it’s nicer to you.
Elizabeth
Exactly!
Kathryn
And also “Don’t look at how the system is rigged, look at this shiny thing over here!”
Elizabeth
Also that idealistic people who think they can make it on talent get eaten alive.
Bleeeeeaaaak.
Hannah
Oh yeah, that part stings a bit.
Elizabeth
Especially when you thought for a second she’d made it.
Hannah
“You’re OK, but you’re not dynamite great.”
Kathryn
Echos of the doping scandals in sports.
When the people who work really hard end up not being able to compete against the ones who are getting chemical help.
So your choices are to cheat, or to not succeed at something you’ve worked your whole life for.
Elizabeth
(I just read an article that was basically “Lance Armstrong: he’s even worse than you think.”)
Hannah
Or just…when you farm an entire population, you wind up with lots of people who are really really good, who still can’t beat the very best
Elizabeth
Right.
Did anybody else wonder how that worked with people waiting for weeks to audition?
Kathryn
Did they have to save up tons of credits so they could afford to not work while they waited?
Hannah
Hah, not exactly, but that the one chick who was so pissy about the order wound up sucking.
Elizabeth
Hee.
Kathryn
Satsifying.
Hannah
I mean, I don’t remember how that worked exactly, but that was a fun detail.
Elizabeth
That’s something this show does consistently well, giving you the feel of the world around it.
All the amazing design details.
Hannah
Yes! I love an anthology when they can build the universe so quickly.
Kathryn
Everything with a totally unique feel for each story.
Hannah
This show really reminds me of The Truth podcast, which is often sci-fi, though not as consistently bleak
But The Truth does do a lot of “this is the normal world we’re living in, but with this one little technological (or possibly fantastical) detail.”
Elizabeth
That’s the one with the Mall one isn’t it?
Hannah
yessss
Elizabeth
Heh, that was amazing on a lot of levels.
Kathryn
I need to give that one a try.
Hannah
(That’s not what we’re talking about, but the sound design on that one blows my mind. Always headphones.)
(Er, the whole podcast, not just that ep)
Elizabeth
I heard the designers went to town on that digital easel she used in I’ll Be Right Back, and they’re like “We need to patent this!”
Kathryn
I loved that easel.
Hannah
I wonder…they must just have a solid handle on all of that digital design stuff, they make it all look so easy.
Elizabeth
I’m a sucker for the “swipe things in the air” tech.
Hannah
Isn’t that Brent Spiner “Spinning”?
Kathryn
Heh, they did call it that.
Elizabeth
Yes!
Though I meant more of the Minority Report/Iron Man “I will drag this schematic into the air and dismiss it with a wave of my hand when I don’t need it anymore.”
Hannah
It may be more prevalent in the next two Black Mirror seasons, but there is a ton of really convincing swiping.
Kathryn
Love me some swiping.
I’ll Be Right Back was another one that made me feel kind of wretched.
Firstly because it’s such a real tragedy, done very convincingly.
And secondly because it felt like having that clone of her husband meant she’d LOST any good emotions about him. It was all just an obligation by the end.
Hannah
Kathryn had a good segue for this bit of “Be Right Back” casting trivia, but the actor who plays the husband/android was apparently the oldest Weasley brother in the Harry Potter movies.
Elizabeth
OH NO WAY.
I just knew him from Ex Machina.
Kathryn
Yep, and also as a bad guy from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.
Hannah
I saw him pop up as a General Hux or something too, yes.
Elizabeth
I missed him there completely.
Kathryn
I feel like he’s kind of forgettable there.
Hannah
But whoo boy, that Irish accent, he can turn on the charm.
Kathryn
MUCH better in Ex Machina.
Yes, the Irish accent is new to me.
Elizabeth
And he’s a good lookin ginger he is.
Hannah
I think that ep is the best kind of heartbreak. I know it’s sad, but it’s sad because it’s about people being in love.
And it’s nobody’s fault. I love telling a compelling story where no one is an asshole.
Kathryn
I hadn’t thought of that, but I agree. There’s no real bad guy in that episode.
Elizabeth
Except maaaaaaybe that friend who signed her up for the service.
Kathryn
Good intentions I suppose.
Elizabeth
Speaking of which, did you know that after watching this ep a woman started designing a chat bot to specifically bring her dead friend back to life, sort of?
Kathryn
Creeeeepy.
Hannah
Huh, I don’t know about that, but there’s a Snap Judgement story called Dadbot where a guy designed a conversation thing for his dead father that could be both text and, kind of, audio.
Elizabeth
Creeeeeepier.
Apparently the one she was creating has morphed into a bot that you let analyze your own patterns so you have a friend to talk to.
“Replika.”
Kathryn
I can see that everyone needs something different in order to process grief.
It just feels like some kind of inverse Uncanny Valley. The closer you get to something that you can really pretend is the person who dies, the harder it gets to move on.
Hannah
YES, I said that to myself the other day: This is like the Uncanny Valley, but with personality instead of appearance.
Elizabeth
Though I almost like that better than creating fake friends for yourself from the ground up.
I mean that’s the other direction you could go in, ala “Her” and Lars and the Real Girl, are we losing the ability to make connections with actual humans?
Hannah
I always have trouble seeing those as being as rewarding as real relationships. (And I spend my days in imaginary conversations with people I’ve never met.)
I think loneliness is just more visible now.
Elizabeth
I agree, but apparently the Fake Digital Girlfriend trend is pretty big in Japan. However: Japan.
Hannah
That caveat is…yes.
Elizabeth
Ooo, do any of the later episodes take place in a far-future Japanese type world?
Kathryn
I’m waiting for the first Dating Video Game episode.
Hannah
Heh, there is one of those, yes. (Er, kind of. There’s a dating episode.)
Elizabeth
Is it in the last season? I’m just before the Star Trek one.
Hannah
Nothing Japanese-y so far, but there’s still room, then.
Kathryn
Judging from the Virtual Digital Clone Slave from White Christmas, I’m sure it’s going to be disturbing.
Hannah
There are four seasons now, but I think I’ve seen reference to later seasons on my twitter feed, so they just haven’t gotten to US Netflix yet.
Elizabeth
Ahhhh.
Hannah
Yep, so: White Christmas.
Kathryn
BOY.
Elizabeth
You know, the Slave element of White Christmas didn’t bother me nearly as much as the messing-with-time element.
Which bothered me a lot.
Kathryn
Let me guess, you were thinking about Stephen King’s story “The Jaunt.”
Elizabeth
It had occurred to me yes.
“A thousand years a minute. We’ll turn it off tomorrow.”
Hannah
The “eternity” bit is the one-two punch at the end, with that and Jon Hamm’s permanently being blocked from everyone.
Elizabeth
Yes! Interesting how those two technologies are really separate, but you couldn’t have had the whole story without both of them.
Kathryn
Okay, now the blocking element was a really good idea (who HASN’T wanted to permanently exclude someone from their entire life.)
But I have issues.
Don’t you think that would end up leading to violence? Like a LOT of violence?
Hannah
Oh, I don’t think it’s a good idea, no.
But I love it as a “what if?” extension of social media blocking.
Kathryn
I would think people would need some kind of implant a la Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where you’d get a jolt if you tried to touch someone you were blocked from.
Elizabeth
Hmmm.
Blocking online seems to be the best bet to deal with a problem person, just withdrawing completely, but yeah, I guess in real life it’d make some people dangerously desperate.
I did love the twist when the blocking was let down.
Hannah
Probably almost specifically in a domestic situation.
Yeah, the way that plot plays out is impressive, but it almost–.almost.–feels like it could’ve been two separate stories.
Or at least, the whole bit that justifies why Jon Hamm is a sex offender is a head-fake toward a totally different story.
Elizabeth
Agreed.
The guy who gets killed at the beginning almost didn’t need to be there at all, you just needed him being horrible to the woman in the Cookie.
Kathryn
You needed everything to have the whole virtual-reality thing play out, but the sex offender thing almost felt like something that Jon Hamm’s character could have made up to get the trust of the other guy.
Elizabeth
True.
Kathryn
Boy I loved that bit when the poor dweeb is getting murdered and you see the reaction shot of all the voyeurs on the computer screen.
Hannah
And honestly, the whole bit with the “digital assistants” or whatever…I don’t, there were a TON of seeds planted for one quick payoff.
Elizabeth
They kept surprising you, first that he was being coached, then that there were more people on the line, then that he didn’t really KNOW there were more people on the line.
Hannah
It’s really a story in and of itself.
Kathryn
The writers must have really wanted to hammer home both the idea of “messing with time”, and how removed society has gotten from the idea of a computer program that actually THINKS it’s the real person.
Hannah
Maybe as a two-parter the pacing would’ve made more sense.
Elizabeth
The casual meanness was interesting, which led up to someone doing the “thousand years a minute.” They didn’t anthropomorphize those recordings at ALL.
It may be a recording of your innermost thoughts and fears, but it’s still a recording.
Kathryn
In a way they didn’t, but at the same time they obviously liked the idea of torturing the guy at the end.
Which, again, is a theme we’ve seen before, where the person getting the punishment is ultimately not the person who committed the crime.
Elizabeth
I’d like to say they wouldn’t have been as quick to torture him if they knew it was really him, but this show certainly likes to drive home that that’s not the case.
Hannah
So, just to clarify: The dude gets unblocked when his ex dies, sees that “his” daughter is not really his daughter, seeks her out, murders the ex’s dad…how does the girl die?
Elizabeth
Wanders off to get help.
In the snow.
Kathryn
Freezes to death, I’m pretty sure.
Hannah
Ah, ok.
I was getting mixed up between their remote “setting” and his story.
Elizabeth
Right, I don’t think in real life he ever saw her under the tree.
Before we follow the “casual meanness in the name of justice” tangent, anybody got words on the Waldo story?
Kathryn
The dystopian ending felt tacked on and unnecessary.
Elizabeth
Agreed.
Hannah
I was just distracted by how much fun “live-action animated” puppetry looked.
Elizabeth
I thought the design on Waldo was hilarious.
And I liked the voice he did for him.
Kathryn
Hopefully the designers are patenting THAT as well.
Hannah
Kind of like a Stitch ripoff.
Elizabeth
With more dick jokes.
Hannah
I liked that for as obnoxious as the character was, the guy wound up being redeemable.
Kathryn
I was impressed at that moment in the group interview when Waldo (the guy playing him) lost his temper.
Hannah
Hah, yes.
Kathryn
All right, I need to grab something to fortify myself before we go onto the remaining episode.
Hannah
Hee.
REFILL.
Elizabeth
Yep, I’ve got my drink all ready.
Kathryn
Okay I’m back.
NOW ABOUT WHITE BEAR…
Hannah
I would like to start by saying that it’s worth watching again, because when you know what’s happening, allll of the people standing around with cameras–which is both familiar but confusing on the first watch–is SO MUCH MORE AWFUL when you know what’s happening.
Elizabeth
I need to do that, I just hadn’t geared myself up for it yet.
Hannah
Yeah, but then so the last 20 minutes are just…ack.
I was so in shock the first time through I didn’t register how long they spend on her being tortured and paraded around.
Kathryn
I found the segments during the credits so damn conflicting.
Hannah
I feel like those were the worst. Or at least, the worst cherry on top of the worst sundae.
Kathryn
Yay, nobody died and they all like working with each other! While they’re torturing a woman for WEEKS.
Elizabeth
I mean we like to think we’re so much more evolved than the days when people would have picnics at public hangings but….
Kathryn
The cheery information segment to all the day’s “participants” was very ick.
Hannah
I feel like this one needles into my psyche (and maybe everyone’s?) in that the idea of people joyously torturing me just…it’s believable and awful. It’s what my nightmares are made of.
Elizabeth
“The most important part is to HAVE FUN.”
Hannah
ACK YES.
Kathryn
And it all ends up being so stupid and unneccesary, because the woman they’re punishing doesn’t even remember the crime.
It’s a public stoning.
Hannah
Especially because it hangs on that sense of self-righteous justification: Nobody actually cares about “useful” or “productive” or “just” so long as we have a wee little reason for being terrible.
…I don’t mean that as an actual judgment of humanity; just of the worst fears for it.
Tangent: So the guy who winds up being the kind of circus ringleader? The one with the van (or whatever?) in the forest?
I doublechecked, and that is a Northern Irish accent.
Elizabeth
I’ve seen him in a lot of things tho I can’t remember which.
Hannah
So the Do The Right Thing podcast I like has this very angry Northern Irish comedian, and at one point they were talking about “friends,” but it turned into “Friends” the tv show, and they landed on how threatening the theme song would sound in a Northern Irish accent:
Elizabeth
Hee!
Hannah
“So…No one told ya life was gonna be this way. Yer job’s a joke. You’re broke…”
And the N. Irish comedian pops in, singing, “Your love life’s IRA?”
Elizabeth
hahahahaha
Kathryn
AHAHAHAHA
Elizabeth
Before I forget, I just wanted to tell Kathryn that it took me forever to figure out where I’d seen the tough girl who’s “helping” her the whole episode. It’s the same actress who plays the wispy blonde Icelandic girl in Sense8.
Kathryn
Riley, right?
Elizabeth
Right!
It was the hair, it threw me off.
Kathryn
That was another bit that made the twist so jarring. I LIKED her character, and she’s exactly as awful as everyone else who’s helping to torture the main character.
Hannah
…if not moreso.
Elizabeth
Yeah, the lack of bad guys in I’ll Be Right Back was balanced out by the total lack of good guys here.
I wondered: would we have felt less conflicted if it was the person who’d done the torturing and murdering? Instead of the woman who filmed it happening?
Kathryn
I started imagining the background to all this, maybe the people in charge realizing that they needed to give the population the chance to participate in torturing her so they’d be distracted from whatever it was that broke down in society that let the crime happen in the first place.
Elizabeth
That’s usually a safe bet.
Kathryn
Having it be the person who filmed it made the punishment even more awful. Because they’d reduced her to a childlike state and then had everyone film her torture.
Hannah
Kathryn is picking up what they’re putting down.
I dunno, I found the whole disorienting experience from the beginning so awful that I have trouble locating the outrage I think I’m supposed to feel for the actual crime. (Though you’re right, that she didn’t do it herself was probably helpful to the story’s impact.)
Kathryn
It would be one thing if they could have made her remember the crime at the end of each day. That would at least make more sense.
Hannah
I think also, as an audience, we realize the torturers are awful well before we know why, so we’re already biased.
Elizabeth
That’s right, she never really does remember it does she?
Kathryn
That might explain why that Smiley character is so awful. There’s this burning need for the criminal to be SORRY, to realize that they did something horrible. And she…can’t.
Hannah
Gah, yes.
She seems as horrified about the crime as she does about her own experiences during the day.
Elizabeth
So, to take it to a way darker level…
Kathryn
Go on…
Elizabeth
The episode is a little bit of a commentary on how people in today’s social media like to dog pile on someone who’s fucked up. It’s less about justice and punishment, since they might not have a personal connection to it, it’s more about how “fun” it is to be awful to someone if you think they deserve it.
So.
Take it to the other extreme: if the episode HAD been the actual murderer and they DID remember it at the end of the day, and the people doing the torturing were the family members of the little girl…
Would that be………better?
Kathryn
Erm.
Hannah
No.
Kathryn
No, more understandable, but the punishment ends up damaging the people doing it.
Hannah
There’s a few, I think?, Sorkin moments that talk about the justice system, and the reason we .don’t. have family members dispelling justice.
Elizabeth
Yeah, I can see that.
Once we go for the eye-for-an-eye thing it never actually stops.
Hannah
Justice would seem to equal logic, yes? But retribution is emotional, and possibly disproportionate.
Kathryn
At least in that situation it would be vengeance of people who’d endured the worst thing you can imagine, rather than this carnival atmosphere of Yay, Let’s Play Chase The Witch!
Hannah
A dispassionate justice system quells both sides.
*ideally
Elizabeth
I was wondering what someone who’s lost a child would think watching this one, I wouldn’t judge them wanting to carve someone up but I guess it’s good the justice system doesn’t work that way.
Hannah
Also, as we were saying with the “Be Right Back” ep, what’s the best way to handle grief? I dunno that eternal torture is actually healthy.
Elizabeth
Very true.
Hannah
An Expert Philosopher might ask: What is the state of Brad Pitt’s character at the end of Se7en?
(Sorry, I think the bourbon has o’ertaken dinner, haha.)
Kathryn
Or the Cheesemaker in The Walking Dead.
Elizabeth
Not any better for having gotten “Justice,” in either case.
Kathryn
Ah yes, because his character didn’t have Justice, he had Wrath, very different.
Hannah
I am curious about a religion in which Justice would be one of the deadly sins, and I would like to subscribe to its newsletter.
Kathryn
Boy, sign me up too.